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	<title>Comments on: This meat or that?</title>
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	<link>http://www.tovarcerulli.com/2010/01/this-meat-or-that/</link>
	<description>Thoughts and stories from a vegan-turned-hunter</description>
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		<title>By: Tovar</title>
		<link>http://www.tovarcerulli.com/2010/01/this-meat-or-that/#comment-65</link>
		<dc:creator>Tovar</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 09 Jan 2010 13:47:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.tovarcerulli.com/?p=134#comment-65</guid>
		<description>Glad you stopped by, TMR. I’ll be visiting your neck of the virtual woods, too. Cheers!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Glad you stopped by, TMR. I’ll be visiting your neck of the virtual woods, too. Cheers!</p>
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		<title>By: Tovar</title>
		<link>http://www.tovarcerulli.com/2010/01/this-meat-or-that/#comment-64</link>
		<dc:creator>Tovar</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 09 Jan 2010 13:45:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.tovarcerulli.com/?p=134#comment-64</guid>
		<description>Well put, Clyde.

You and I agree in many ways. It&#039;s tempting for all of us—hunters, non-hunting meat-eaters, and vegetarians—to deny uncomfortable truths and to defend our positions by coming up with all kinds of justifications. I think all of us can benefit from reflecting more deeply and honestly on our relationships with animals and nature; at least as importantly, animals and nature can benefit from us doing that.

Yes, having been one myself, I have a lot of respect for most vegetarians and their reasons for making that dietary choice.

And I agree with you about the moral responsibility that comes with hunting, the need for both compassion and &quot;acute judgment,&quot; and the sacredness of the power to kill or let live.

I&#039;m grateful to have you as part of this conversation.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well put, Clyde.</p>
<p>You and I agree in many ways. It&#8217;s tempting for all of us—hunters, non-hunting meat-eaters, and vegetarians—to deny uncomfortable truths and to defend our positions by coming up with all kinds of justifications. I think all of us can benefit from reflecting more deeply and honestly on our relationships with animals and nature; at least as importantly, animals and nature can benefit from us doing that.</p>
<p>Yes, having been one myself, I have a lot of respect for most vegetarians and their reasons for making that dietary choice.</p>
<p>And I agree with you about the moral responsibility that comes with hunting, the need for both compassion and &#8220;acute judgment,&#8221; and the sacredness of the power to kill or let live.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m grateful to have you as part of this conversation.</p>
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		<title>By: Clyde</title>
		<link>http://www.tovarcerulli.com/2010/01/this-meat-or-that/#comment-63</link>
		<dc:creator>Clyde</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 09 Jan 2010 07:47:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.tovarcerulli.com/?p=134#comment-63</guid>
		<description>Thanks for the kind reply, Tovar. The most common replies I get when I bring up some of the things I&#039;ve witnessed are usually rationalizations for why it&#039;s okay to treat animals as such. I&#039;ve heard everything from how highly-sophisticated animals have &quot;reduced nerve impulses&quot; (despite many mammal&#039;s near identical nervous system constructs), religious justifications for treatment of the &#039;beasts,&#039; philosophical explanations for how our superiority as a species affords free will in our treatment of them, and so forth. It&#039;s with genuine respect that I thank you for even entertaining a concept that I realize can cause much ire among hunters. I suspect there are issues we vegetarians are reticent to address as well, although I personally tend to see adversarial positions sometimes as a way to grow to a new understanding. I think everyone, to be proverbial, has at least a piece of that log in their eye.

A lot of people who slaughter animals or who hunt for food seem to think that those of us who are vegetarians come by this philosophical stance by way of ignorance and lack of experience. I doubt very much you share that perspective, having been a vegetarian yourself. I know many vegetarians who don&#039;t eat meat, precisely because they&#039;ve been formed by painful experiences vis-a-vis the suffering of animals. That was certainly my path, forced to be part of some horrors of slaughter at a young age. Having formed relationships with many types of animals throughout my life, younger and older -- and understanding the animals&#039; personalities and sensitivities, I realized one day that if I were to kill one of these birds or animals for a meal, I would have -- at most -- a half hour of pleasure in my dining room. A half hour in exchange for erasing the complex emotional life I&#039;d come to know in the presence of this living being. A being with evolved characteristics that are sometimes denied in the interest of retaining that wall between the them and the us. So some may call that naive, in that I&#039;m ascribing some level of sophistication to a non-human animal. Frankly, I believe that someday our understanding will evolve to a point where we will make these equivalencies  between humans and non-humans more easily -- and look back on these times as genuine dark ages of understanding when it comes to species distinction.

That being said, I&#039;ve tried to accommodate the fact that others do not share my philosophical or intellectual stance, even as it pains me tremendously to witness cruelty that will undoubtedly persist until the end of my lifetime. But I do believe there&#039;s a middle ground that ought to be consistently addressed by all of us, and that is the intent and context of any harm we inflict. It&#039;s why in reading a blog like yours, I&#039;m gratified to hear of your commitment -- to paraphrase Hippocrates -- do the least harm. In my mind, there is absolutely no excuse for letting an animal suffer when mercy is the alternative. Just none. Because hunting is by its very nature a mission to kill (for myriad reasons, I understand) it brings with it an exceptionally high level of moral culpability as I see it. It&#039;s a deliberate act to harm and I believe anyone who undertakes that act has a moral imperative to show compassion and acute judgment before striking in any form. I believe the same of any industry or pursuit in which we humans utilize non-humans for our purposes. When we have the power to issue a thumbs up or thumbs down on another&#039;s life, my personal belief is that we should hold that power sacred and use it with benevolence as a primary consideration.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for the kind reply, Tovar. The most common replies I get when I bring up some of the things I&#8217;ve witnessed are usually rationalizations for why it&#8217;s okay to treat animals as such. I&#8217;ve heard everything from how highly-sophisticated animals have &#8220;reduced nerve impulses&#8221; (despite many mammal&#8217;s near identical nervous system constructs), religious justifications for treatment of the &#8216;beasts,&#8217; philosophical explanations for how our superiority as a species affords free will in our treatment of them, and so forth. It&#8217;s with genuine respect that I thank you for even entertaining a concept that I realize can cause much ire among hunters. I suspect there are issues we vegetarians are reticent to address as well, although I personally tend to see adversarial positions sometimes as a way to grow to a new understanding. I think everyone, to be proverbial, has at least a piece of that log in their eye.</p>
<p>A lot of people who slaughter animals or who hunt for food seem to think that those of us who are vegetarians come by this philosophical stance by way of ignorance and lack of experience. I doubt very much you share that perspective, having been a vegetarian yourself. I know many vegetarians who don&#8217;t eat meat, precisely because they&#8217;ve been formed by painful experiences vis-a-vis the suffering of animals. That was certainly my path, forced to be part of some horrors of slaughter at a young age. Having formed relationships with many types of animals throughout my life, younger and older &#8212; and understanding the animals&#8217; personalities and sensitivities, I realized one day that if I were to kill one of these birds or animals for a meal, I would have &#8212; at most &#8212; a half hour of pleasure in my dining room. A half hour in exchange for erasing the complex emotional life I&#8217;d come to know in the presence of this living being. A being with evolved characteristics that are sometimes denied in the interest of retaining that wall between the them and the us. So some may call that naive, in that I&#8217;m ascribing some level of sophistication to a non-human animal. Frankly, I believe that someday our understanding will evolve to a point where we will make these equivalencies  between humans and non-humans more easily &#8212; and look back on these times as genuine dark ages of understanding when it comes to species distinction.</p>
<p>That being said, I&#8217;ve tried to accommodate the fact that others do not share my philosophical or intellectual stance, even as it pains me tremendously to witness cruelty that will undoubtedly persist until the end of my lifetime. But I do believe there&#8217;s a middle ground that ought to be consistently addressed by all of us, and that is the intent and context of any harm we inflict. It&#8217;s why in reading a blog like yours, I&#8217;m gratified to hear of your commitment &#8212; to paraphrase Hippocrates &#8212; do the least harm. In my mind, there is absolutely no excuse for letting an animal suffer when mercy is the alternative. Just none. Because hunting is by its very nature a mission to kill (for myriad reasons, I understand) it brings with it an exceptionally high level of moral culpability as I see it. It&#8217;s a deliberate act to harm and I believe anyone who undertakes that act has a moral imperative to show compassion and acute judgment before striking in any form. I believe the same of any industry or pursuit in which we humans utilize non-humans for our purposes. When we have the power to issue a thumbs up or thumbs down on another&#8217;s life, my personal belief is that we should hold that power sacred and use it with benevolence as a primary consideration.</p>
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		<title>By: NorCal Cazadora</title>
		<link>http://www.tovarcerulli.com/2010/01/this-meat-or-that/#comment-62</link>
		<dc:creator>NorCal Cazadora</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 08 Jan 2010 20:56:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.tovarcerulli.com/?p=134#comment-62</guid>
		<description>Sadly, I&#039;ve heard it a lot, and the statistics suggest it may not be that uncommon: Between 18 and 20 percent of Americans disapprove of hunting, but only 3.2 percent don&#039;t eat meat. Some of that may be antipathy toward hunters and some of our worst behaviors, but I believe much of that is just hypocrisy (or willful ignorance).

The other funny thing about attitudes toward wild meat is this bizarre belief that wild animals are filled with disease simply because they&#039;re wild. I actually had a guy in an internet discussion tell me one day that hunted meat is potentially dangerous because it wasn&#039;t produced in a USDA-inspected facility. I had to remind him about all the deaths from e coli-laden burgers that you hear about constantly, and asked if he could cite one hunter death from eating wild game. Conversation over.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sadly, I&#8217;ve heard it a lot, and the statistics suggest it may not be that uncommon: Between 18 and 20 percent of Americans disapprove of hunting, but only 3.2 percent don&#8217;t eat meat. Some of that may be antipathy toward hunters and some of our worst behaviors, but I believe much of that is just hypocrisy (or willful ignorance).</p>
<p>The other funny thing about attitudes toward wild meat is this bizarre belief that wild animals are filled with disease simply because they&#8217;re wild. I actually had a guy in an internet discussion tell me one day that hunted meat is potentially dangerous because it wasn&#8217;t produced in a USDA-inspected facility. I had to remind him about all the deaths from e coli-laden burgers that you hear about constantly, and asked if he could cite one hunter death from eating wild game. Conversation over.</p>
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		<title>By: Tovar</title>
		<link>http://www.tovarcerulli.com/2010/01/this-meat-or-that/#comment-58</link>
		<dc:creator>Tovar</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 08 Jan 2010 20:12:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.tovarcerulli.com/?p=134#comment-58</guid>
		<description>P.S. In my haste, I wasn&#039;t as clear as I might have been, Clyde.

To a certain degree, I can make my peace with abstractly &quot;knowing&quot; about poor hunter behavior. Logically, my mind knows that being a hunter doesn&#039;t make me responsible for the worst acts that hunters can muster, just as being a driver doesn&#039;t make me responsible for the reckless highway activities of other drivers.

But when I see first-hand evidence of hunters&#039; callous disrespect of animals—or hear credible stories of such—my heart and soul are deeply disturbed. I don&#039;t yet have words for all the reasons this is so.

I&#039;ll have to more to say on this in future posts, I&#039;m sure.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>P.S. In my haste, I wasn&#8217;t as clear as I might have been, Clyde.</p>
<p>To a certain degree, I can make my peace with abstractly &#8220;knowing&#8221; about poor hunter behavior. Logically, my mind knows that being a hunter doesn&#8217;t make me responsible for the worst acts that hunters can muster, just as being a driver doesn&#8217;t make me responsible for the reckless highway activities of other drivers.</p>
<p>But when I see first-hand evidence of hunters&#8217; callous disrespect of animals—or hear credible stories of such—my heart and soul are deeply disturbed. I don&#8217;t yet have words for all the reasons this is so.</p>
<p>I&#8217;ll have to more to say on this in future posts, I&#8217;m sure.</p>
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		<title>By: T. Michael Riddle</title>
		<link>http://www.tovarcerulli.com/2010/01/this-meat-or-that/#comment-57</link>
		<dc:creator>T. Michael Riddle</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 08 Jan 2010 18:11:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.tovarcerulli.com/?p=134#comment-57</guid>
		<description>Hi Tovar,
Just as SBW has stated I came over here via Holly and am not disappointed in the slightest degree!
I will definitely come by and visit more often if I am welcome to do so :-)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Tovar,<br />
Just as SBW has stated I came over here via Holly and am not disappointed in the slightest degree!<br />
I will definitely come by and visit more often if I am welcome to do so <img src='http://www.tovarcerulli.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Tovar</title>
		<link>http://www.tovarcerulli.com/2010/01/this-meat-or-that/#comment-54</link>
		<dc:creator>Tovar</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 08 Jan 2010 14:52:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.tovarcerulli.com/?p=134#comment-54</guid>
		<description>I really appreciate your comment, Clyde.

At the moment, I must be brief, as I have to run in a minute.  In short, I agree with you. Both domestic and wild animals can be treated with respect. And both can be treated horribly. For me, one of the hardest parts of being a hunter is knowing what ignorant and malicious acts are committed by some hunters.

That&#039;s all I have time for just now. Thanks again.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I really appreciate your comment, Clyde.</p>
<p>At the moment, I must be brief, as I have to run in a minute.  In short, I agree with you. Both domestic and wild animals can be treated with respect. And both can be treated horribly. For me, one of the hardest parts of being a hunter is knowing what ignorant and malicious acts are committed by some hunters.</p>
<p>That&#8217;s all I have time for just now. Thanks again.</p>
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		<title>By: Clyde</title>
		<link>http://www.tovarcerulli.com/2010/01/this-meat-or-that/#comment-52</link>
		<dc:creator>Clyde</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 08 Jan 2010 14:03:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.tovarcerulli.com/?p=134#comment-52</guid>
		<description>As a vegetarian who&#039;s well aware of how meat arrives at the table, I admit that I used to have a greater respect for hunting because of its seeming lack of hypocrisy. I have had many hunting friends over the years, and we always had animated discussions about life, death and food sources. If you asked them, I believe they would all verify we had a mutual respect -- they me for my commitment to vegetarianism, and me them for their honesty in acquiring their meat.

My perspective changed after I became a photographer, believe it or not. I picked up a camera gain in mid-life after putting down my SLR years before. Along with my telephoto lens came hours and even days in the wilderness with wildlife . . . areas where I&#039;d previously camped or hiked. But with my camera, I became much more of an integrated observer.

And as an observer, immersed in worlds where hunters and non-hunters collide, I wish I could say that my experience of hunting was as clean and humane as you suggest. If it were, I might be writing today with a different perspective.

But I&#039;ve seen all manner of wanton killing, injury and -- if I can be so bold -- torture. Some of what I&#039;ve seen is slaughter that emulates what I&#039;ve also seen on factory farms when I was a young, committed vegan. No better, no worse. But it&#039;s all the same when it comes to the ignorance or (sadly) sometimes malice of the human heart.

I&#039;m afraid there&#039;s really no turning someone like myself who&#039;s been on both sides of the issue. I do respect those hunters I meet who have a solid code of ethics when it comes to their treatment of animals and the reasons they hunt.

But when I&#039;m out there in that silent space with the wild animals I&#039;ve come to respect so tremendously, gunshots breaking the silence evoke as much antipathy as do the sounds of the trucks pulling into the slaughterhouse near where I used to live. It&#039;s all the same to me. I wish it weren&#039;t.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As a vegetarian who&#8217;s well aware of how meat arrives at the table, I admit that I used to have a greater respect for hunting because of its seeming lack of hypocrisy. I have had many hunting friends over the years, and we always had animated discussions about life, death and food sources. If you asked them, I believe they would all verify we had a mutual respect &#8212; they me for my commitment to vegetarianism, and me them for their honesty in acquiring their meat.</p>
<p>My perspective changed after I became a photographer, believe it or not. I picked up a camera gain in mid-life after putting down my SLR years before. Along with my telephoto lens came hours and even days in the wilderness with wildlife . . . areas where I&#8217;d previously camped or hiked. But with my camera, I became much more of an integrated observer.</p>
<p>And as an observer, immersed in worlds where hunters and non-hunters collide, I wish I could say that my experience of hunting was as clean and humane as you suggest. If it were, I might be writing today with a different perspective.</p>
<p>But I&#8217;ve seen all manner of wanton killing, injury and &#8212; if I can be so bold &#8212; torture. Some of what I&#8217;ve seen is slaughter that emulates what I&#8217;ve also seen on factory farms when I was a young, committed vegan. No better, no worse. But it&#8217;s all the same when it comes to the ignorance or (sadly) sometimes malice of the human heart.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m afraid there&#8217;s really no turning someone like myself who&#8217;s been on both sides of the issue. I do respect those hunters I meet who have a solid code of ethics when it comes to their treatment of animals and the reasons they hunt.</p>
<p>But when I&#8217;m out there in that silent space with the wild animals I&#8217;ve come to respect so tremendously, gunshots breaking the silence evoke as much antipathy as do the sounds of the trucks pulling into the slaughterhouse near where I used to live. It&#8217;s all the same to me. I wish it weren&#8217;t.</p>
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		<title>By: Howling Duck Ranch</title>
		<link>http://www.tovarcerulli.com/2010/01/this-meat-or-that/#comment-49</link>
		<dc:creator>Howling Duck Ranch</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 08 Jan 2010 03:28:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.tovarcerulli.com/?p=134#comment-49</guid>
		<description>Wow, never before have I heard the argument put that way (that farm animals were born to be our meat but that wild ones would still be alive if it weren&#039;t for you and your gun)! This could only be put forth by someone who doesn&#039;t have any idea of the suffering that &#039;our meat&#039; animals endure during their short pitiful &#039;lives&#039; (I struggle to even say life in this context). 

Funny to hear it put that wild meat is unsavory in light of the times and all the public health scares of late! 

cheers,

Kristeva Dowling
Howling Duck Ranch</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wow, never before have I heard the argument put that way (that farm animals were born to be our meat but that wild ones would still be alive if it weren&#8217;t for you and your gun)! This could only be put forth by someone who doesn&#8217;t have any idea of the suffering that &#8216;our meat&#8217; animals endure during their short pitiful &#8216;lives&#8217; (I struggle to even say life in this context). </p>
<p>Funny to hear it put that wild meat is unsavory in light of the times and all the public health scares of late! </p>
<p>cheers,</p>
<p>Kristeva Dowling<br />
Howling Duck Ranch</p>
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		<title>By: Howling Duck Ranch</title>
		<link>http://www.tovarcerulli.com/2010/01/this-meat-or-that/#comment-48</link>
		<dc:creator>Howling Duck Ranch</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 08 Jan 2010 03:22:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.tovarcerulli.com/?p=134#comment-48</guid>
		<description>You know, I got my first moose this year. I only had one tiny, fleeting moment when I looked into his dead eye of, I&#039;m not even sure what emotion to put to the feeling, perhaps sadness that this young bull had lost his life to me. But, the moment we got him hooked up and rolled over to begin the field dressing process, he was suddenly nothing more than meat for my freezer. 

cheers,

Kristeva Dowling
Howling Duck Ranch</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You know, I got my first moose this year. I only had one tiny, fleeting moment when I looked into his dead eye of, I&#8217;m not even sure what emotion to put to the feeling, perhaps sadness that this young bull had lost his life to me. But, the moment we got him hooked up and rolled over to begin the field dressing process, he was suddenly nothing more than meat for my freezer. </p>
<p>cheers,</p>
<p>Kristeva Dowling<br />
Howling Duck Ranch</p>
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